Making your product strategy come alive – Chiedza Muguti

Product managers have been spending the last few weeks looking at their OKRs and thinking about the direction of their products. To help us better understand product strategy and direction, we spoke with Product Leader Chiedza Muguti to discuss making your product strategy come alive. 

Featured Links: Follow Chiedza on LinkedIn | World Health Organisation | Alteos | ‘Giving direction in product with Janna Bastow, Chiedza Muguti, and Nacho Bassino’ feature at Mind The Product

Episode Transcript

Randy Silver: 0:00
Lily, it's that time of year.

Lily Smith: 0:03
Oh, do you mean time to sneak my Q1 OKRs through, because everyone's switched off for the holidays?

Randy Silver: 0:10
Well, you're half right. I mean, OKRs are never really agreed until we're about two weeks into the quarter anyway, right? Or is that just my experience?

Lily Smith: 0:22
No comment on that my experience.

Randy Silver: 0:29
No comment on that. Okay, we'll keep that quiet. But what I meant is that it's time to get into the holiday spirit, to think about what we want to find under the tree.

Lily Smith: 0:34
Oh well, I'm about to start a new job, so it'd be nice to have Father Christmas. Gift me a great product strategy to kickstart the year with.

Randy Silver: 0:42
Well, I'm not sure about the Father Christmas, or Santa as we call him, but I'm confident that our guest today can make sure that whatever strategy you have, it's in the best possible shape and that you communicate it really well.

Lily Smith: 0:58
That will do, Randy. I mean, I also have your present to look forward to, but you'll have to work hard to make it as good as the chat we had with Altius CPO Chiedza Muguti.

The Product Experience Podcast is brought to you by Mind, the Product part of the Pendo family. Every week we talk to inspiring product people from around the globe.

Randy Silver: 1:23
Visit mindtheproductcom to catch up on past episodes and discover free resources to help you with your product practice. Learn about Mind, the Product's conferences and their great training opportunities.

Lily Smith: 1:35
Create a free account to get product inspiration delivered weekly to your inbox. Mind, the Product supports over 200 product tank meetups from New York to Barcelona. There's probably one near you. Hi, Chiedza, it's so great to be talking to you on the podcast today.

Chiedza Muguti : 1:57
Hello Lily, good evening, and hello Randy. I think it's evening for all of us. So, yeah, we're good, it's evening everyone yeah yeah we could make it work. So yeah, I'm really grateful.

Lily Smith: 2:10
So we're going to be talking about strategy today, which is one of my favorite subjects. But before we get started, it would be great if you could give the world the podcast product podcast world a quick intro to who you are and what you do in product great.

Chiedza Muguti : 2:27
So, um, yeah, so obviously my name is Chiedza, I'm Zimbabwean and my journey in product started out as a business analyst. So I was working with engineers, with architects, with QAs. I was in my happy place, writing hundreds of pages of documents and specs and everything. And I used to work with product managers a lot, but I was more like the technical support person, so sort of taking all of the high level stuff they did and then blowing it up into the stuff that the engineers needed to make it actually work. And then over time I was asked if I wanted to join the product team and I was really terrified because you know, as a business analyst you work with quite a lot of certainty. So you know the specs that you get are sort of pretty set. But then, you know, product for me looked like.

Chiedza Muguti : 3:19
I was like there's so much uncertainty and you're having to deal with all these people who have like all of these ideas. Some of them are really like quite far away, super visionary, and I just thought there's no way that I can manage those things and those people without sort of the business analyst in me being like that's not possible. We've got product debt, we're not going to make it on time. The architect is not made like that. So I never thought that I could be the person that could actually sort of herald and shepherd people into the right direction. So like, hmm, okay, so you want to do that thing? Tell me more. You know, I was always like no, no, no.

Chiedza Muguti : 3:56
So it took me a while to get comfortable with the idea of working in product and realizing that I could actually thrive in it and that I could use the experience I had from delivery to actually support the more high level strategic work that was going on. So there was a process of reinventing myself and also reinventing what success looks like for me. So success for me doesn't look like, you know, writing having like the most amazing requirements, spec or the most amazing user stories. But now it was like you know, writing having like the most amazing requirements, spec or the most amazing user stories. But now it was like what are the outcomes of the conversations that we've had with all these stakeholders? Are people aligned? Are people buying into the vision and feeling that we are moving in that direction? So I was moved into product, which was, you know.

Chiedza Muguti : 4:43
After six months of really struggling to make that move and reinvent myself. I started to really get into it and really enjoy it. So I started out in payments and then I moved into credit ratings and then into sort of foreign exchange and then, most recently, I was working in digital banking, and what I do now has changed a lot. So it's sort of gone from what I was talking about super detailed work, and now that I'm now working at InsurTech, called Alteos, as the chief platform officer, and now it's really about, you know, leading people and empowering people to do great work, build really great products and build great relationships with our customers. So I think I feel like I've gone through a process of reinventing myself a few times and getting comfortable with where I am now. So, yeah, that's what I do.

Lily Smith: 5:37
I think it's really interesting when you come from a background of delivery and I had a similar kind of journey I was a project manager before I became a product manager you really appreciate the need for clarity of purpose and kind of clarity of direction for the team, which I think then makes you a stronger product manager because you understand the advantages of having having that clarity like within the team oh, yes, absolutely, and I think it also gives you that edge because you know, even when you are having those super, very high level visionary conversations, you sort of know the little questions to like poke people to sort of build that clarity.

Chiedza Muguti : 6:20
so it's not that you're saying to them I want you to write it, but it's about how can I extract that from you, play it back to you and then really share it with the team. So, and the other thing that I've also really learned is also continuously sharing it with everyone and saying, right, you know, like, does this make sense? And then, if there are changes, you know what's the context and why those changes, and sort of taking that stuff that's super visionary and just repackaging it for all the different audiences, which is something that you learn a lot in delivery, because you know one minute you're talking to an engineer, then you're talking to a QA person, then you're talking to an operations person, and then you know you'd have to deal with so many different people communicating about so many different things, context switching. So I think this also really helped to prepare me for what I'm doing now.

Randy Silver: 7:09
So one of the key elements and the thing we really wanted to talk to you about is putting together your strategy and then communicating it. So, Chiesa, I saw you talk a few months ago in Hamburg and it relates to what you were just talking about, about the elements that go into a good strategy and then how you communicate it. So let's, before we talk about communicating and getting everyone else, let's talk about what you have to have in there. So you said there were four things. There was clarity, empathy, focus and trust. So let's go through those really quickly. So what do you mean by clarity? How do you know that you have clarity in your strategy?

Chiedza Muguti : 7:48
You'll know you have clarity. If you have I wouldn't call them fewer escalations but if you have less of different teams coming with competing priorities, that's when you know that you've got clarity because everybody knows that we're moving in the same direction. I don't think there's a utopia where you kind of have, like, the strategy so clear so you never have escalations or questions. But I think that if they are very frequent and they're causing tension between teams, then that means that there isn't enough clarity and often I think from a leadership perspective it's also about us taking more responsibility that anything that's not clear on the leadership level will just be amplified for the rest of the team. So actually, that clarity we need to fight for that and really work on that at a leadership level make sure that we all understand, making sure we're going in the same direction, and this also comes down to thinking about how people are measured in terms of their performance. So this is something that needs to be iterated on and agreed on so that everybody knows that okay, we're clear, we're moving in the same direction.

Chiedza Muguti : 8:48
Of course there will be times when you know someone comes and says do we do A or B? But if your strategy is clear, then, whatever you decide, people should understand why you've chosen A or B and why it makes sense and also thinking about okay, but if we don't do B, then what will happen? When will we do it? So, I think, trying to figure out, go through those conversations, but you can use your strategy always as that thing that keeps all of you going in the right direction, and that's why I think clarity is a bit underrated. I think sometimes people have this really far away vision statement and they're like okay, now go and make that happen. But you really need to break it down in the strategy and make sure it's clear that people actually know that. Okay, yeah, we are going in the same direction and we're very sure that we're moving slowly towards our main vision.

Randy Silver: 9:36
Yeah, so it's a difference between being what's clear in your own head and clear what's in other people's heads.

Chiedza Muguti : 9:44
Yeah, A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And it's one of those things is, if you say something, it's always about saying, how have you heard what I said? And then someone plays it back. And I've really learned a lot about you know, really asking people. So do you understand, like what I've said? Or what do you think about what I've said? Or so, from what I've said, like what do you think are the things that your teams will need to do to get there? And just by asking some of those questions, then you'll start to see, okay, I don't think people have quite, quite understood, because things can be interpreted in different ways by different people. Right, we're all fearfully and wonderfully made and you know, we're human, we're're unique, so we're not all supposed to be the same, so we hear things differently and interpret things differently and I think one of the other things that you cover off under clarity is the availability and the accessibility of the the strategy as well.

Lily Smith: 10:36
so what, what's your kind of like top tips for making sure that the the strategy is really available to the people who need access to it and making sure that it's, you know, provided in a way that means that, well, yeah, that they have access to it when they need it?

Chiedza Muguti : 10:53
Yeah. So I'm a big believer in. In my first job, they used to call them roadshows, and when I was younger I didn't really understand. I was always like I don't understand why these product teams are forever like saying, hey, we're having a roadshow with delivering this thing. And then I realized that, oh, actually, it's a really good way of reinforcing something and it's a really good way of getting people on board, getting people excited and building up that anticipation for that particular launch.

Chiedza Muguti : 11:20
And so what would always happen is we would have roadshows, and what I really liked as well was that different people in the team would lead those roadshows, so it wasn't always one person who was doing all the talking and sort of disseminating the information. It was shared across the team. So there was this shared responsibility, which meant that that team needed to be so on point and so aligned and really understand okay, what are we going to share? So if the three of us, for example, were in a team, we would agree like this is what our slide deck is going to look like. Let's all practice it and go through it together and then making sure that, once you've done the roadshow, you let people know. This is where you can find the information and also sharing it through whatever communication channels you use, whether it's Teams or, if you're in 1990, email or like on Slack but making sure that people know where something is.

Chiedza Muguti : 12:14
And then I think also it's important to make sure that if there are changes, right and this goes back to clarity, because if I tell you something today and I say, randy and Lily, this is where it's available, you've heard what I've said today, and then you go next week and it's different, then you'll be like okay, did I hear something wrong? Or what happened? So if something also changes, thinking about that whole change management and communicating and also with context, not just saying, oh, we were going left yesterday, now we're going right as you were. You know, people want to understand like, what happened? Why have we changed direction? So, more than just making sure it's available, it's also making sure that someone owns that, so that on an ongoing basis, you're making sure that if there are changes, uh, you are communicating them. Sometimes you can bunch up the changes so that you're not like publishing something all the time. But I think it's important, if there's something significant, that people have clarity and they know about it.

Randy Silver: 13:09
I've seen roadshows go bad for any number of reasons. I've seen great ones, I've been part of really good ones. I've also been part of bad ones. So there's a couple of elements. How often do you do them? How do you make it so that you're not talking at people but you're talking with them, and it's a dialogue and a conversation?

Chiedza Muguti : 13:28
I think it's important to also be cognizant of what stage the company is in. So does your strategy change that often? So if it's not going to really change that often, then it probably is fine to have a big refresher, right? If it's not too much information for people to consume, then I think that you know, if you have it once or twice a year, it's fine, fine. I think that if you are a scaling company or a company that's still in its infancy and still growing, then you need to kind of think about.

Chiedza Muguti : 13:58
You know, something that we did at Penta was it wasn't so much about the strategy, but the product team, sort of every month, would talk about highlights. So we'd have a session where we talk about highlights if there were key things that we had actually done, so this was something that was in the diary and then people could attend that session. But what we tried to do was, at least three times a year, just really share. Like you know, this is our vision and this is how we're doing against our vision. And people could use a tool called Slido so they could ask questions, they could put their name or they could ask them anonymously, and you know, I totally understand what you're saying.

Chiedza Muguti : 14:33
Sometimes people, no one would say anything and then you'd be like, oh, maybe we shouldn't have done that. And then sometimes there were like a thousand questions and then you think, oh wow, people were super, super interactive. So I think it can be. It depends also on the size of the company, the frequency of the change. I can imagine now, especially with so much change that's been going on, it's probably a really good time to do some reinforcing, some reminding, also trying to, you know, calm people and just say, like this is what's happening on a macroeconomic level. This is where we are as a company, just to also give people an idea of what's happening, because right now people maybe, if you're not doing that, could be feeling insecure.

Lily Smith: 15:14
so I think it's also about making sure you understand, you know the stage of the company, sort of what people need to feel secure and also what people need to feel motivated yeah, I think that's really interesting and I guess the hybrid way of working that we're all well a lot of teams are in now could potentially make those roadshows like just a little bit more complicated or potentially easier, because you do them online and then record them and then people can watch them later if they've missed them or whatever, and there's nothing I like more than watching a meeting at two times speed, so that I've saved 30 minutes of my life.

Chiedza Muguti : 15:59
Also something I talked about in Hamburg. It feels like so long ago, but yeah, it was only in June. But something I talked about is, you know, seeing, like who are people who are really engaged and asking them. You know, what do you think, how do you think the session went? And then even approaching the people who are really engaged and asking them you know, what do you think? How do you think the session went? And then even approaching the people who weren't engaged, like just make sure they know they're not in trouble, but just asking them, like is there something we could do differently?

Chiedza Muguti : 16:23
So you can also sort of learn, because I think sometimes what you find is that disengagement tends to be very like it's specific teams that maybe are disengaged. So, also trying to understand how can we adapt this for people to feel like, oh okay, yeah, this is actually really speaking to me. I feel really involved. I think we had feedback once where a team felt like we're not represented at all, but we've been doing all of this hard work and it's not fair and certain teams are always in the spotlight. So it's also that tricky balance right. So you're making sure that you're not talking about the same teams all the time, and that's not easy, that's not easy.

Randy Silver: 17:01
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Randy Silver: 18:09
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Lily Smith: 18:12
Learn more today at pendoio slash podcast, and one of the other elements that you talk about making up a good strategy is empathy, so tell us a bit about your experience of like how you've brought empathy into the strategy.

Chiedza Muguti : 18:31
So something that I try to do is because now, with the roles that I do, I'm a lot further away from the details of what's actually going on, and I think teams prefer that right, because you wouldn't want, I don't think they would want to see me in like their planning or their retros or whatever, so they don't want to see me there all the time. But what definitely something that I do like to understand is that what are your wins and what are your struggles? So what are the things as a team that you really feel are not moving, that you feel are directly connected to maybe the company's moving in a certain direction and not giving you an opportunity to breathe, to try to sort things out, because you know something else is going to come along that's going to make it 10 times harder. So trying to really understand about you know what are some of the team struggles and then how can I, in the role that I have, make sure that I am communicating this upwards and really highlighting that? You know, these are some of the things that we want to do in future, but to really empower the teams. We need to address some of some you know, I don't like to call it technical debt because it's rebranded in my mind as product debt so, to really understand what are the things that we need to clear because this is something that does really disengage teams is that they keep telling you like we need to do this, we need to fix this. And then you're like, of course, of course, next quarter, I promise we're going to do it. And then they see this long list of stuff and they're just like, okay, so when can we do the stuff you promised? And it's like, no, no, no, not this coming quarter, but the one afterwards.

Chiedza Muguti : 20:03
And then eventually they start to lose that trust and that faith. And then they also feel like you don't empathize with them. You don't empathize with, maybe, how tricky the code base is becoming, or you don't empathize with, okay, you know, we've been asking you for clarity and feedback. You're not replying my emails, you're not replying my Slack. So one of the ways I try to make sure that you know I'm bringing empathy is 360 feedback, which is really, really painful sometimes.

Chiedza Muguti : 20:28
So, like asking teams like you know, what am I not doing? Uh, for you to succeed? And then they're like well, and then I get like a list of things that I need to work on, which is good, so then I can get a sense of of where people are. And then I try to get quotes from teams. So I try to get quotes from teams about the strategy, what they think, and then share those quotes to open up the conversation, because I think when people see their peers are being open or their peers have made a comment, it sort of unlocks that. Oh okay, so I can also say something too. So really trying to make sure that people feel that not only am I approachable, but they are actually a very significant part of the strategy and where we're going. So that's what I try to do, but I'm still trying to be better. So I'm always open to more ideas, because I don't think learning ever stops.

Randy Silver: 21:23
Okay, lily asked you about empathy there and you did answer that, but it sounds like you also went into trust as well, so I just want to make sure is there anything else that we should cover in the trust element of these four elements?

Chiedza Muguti : 21:37
Yeah, I mean, I think with trust. You know obviously I've covered it right when, if someone says you know we really want to do this, and then you say, yeah, we're definitely going to do it, I think you have to be very mindful, especially if you're in a leadership position, how you respond to people about making, like making commitments to people without actually having that signed off and agreed and understood. So you know I've fallen into that trap because you know I'm a people pleasing recovery, as people say. So I've really learned that. You know, sometimes you have to sit with that uncomfortable moment or feeling when you think you've let someone down, but actually people would rather have that difficult conversation and know the truth than for you to like lie to them just for like temporary relief.

Chiedza Muguti : 22:22
So I think there there's the trust and also just being vulnerable. You know, sometimes I just say to the teams right now I honestly don't know and I need a bit of time to have a think about it, Because I'm definitely someone that needs to have a think about it, Because I'm definitely someone that needs to process, to think about things. It's like a puzzle in my head. So I think, okay, if I move this here and then I do this, how will I do this, how will I pitch it to the leadership team, etc. So also that vulnerability, just, you know, showing my team. Like you know, I might be in this position, but I definitely don't know everything, so I need you to also trust me, work with me and tell me exactly how we can sort of sort some of this stuff out.

Lily Smith: 23:08
So yeah, that's what I would add. And then the fourth element was focus, and I really like this because you know, I think that's kind of what a strategy is all about is, like, you know the things that you're saying no to as well as the things that you're saying yes to. So tell us a bit more about, like, how you bring focus into your strategy.

Chiedza Muguti : 23:23
Yes. So at a leadership level, I like to work with context or pillars, or whatever it's called. You can use whatever you want. So, for example, you know, I would have like revenue or acquisition or retention, and the first question that I asked to the leadership team is you know, as an organization, whether it's from where we want to get to investor expectations. So, the big things, what is the thing that is going to get us in the right direction given all of these constraints? Because you know, we have to all be honest, we all operate within certain constraints, right, and we have certain expectations and certain milestones that we need to hit.

Chiedza Muguti : 24:05
And that question always opens a Pandora's box because everybody's like, oh, I think it's this, oh, I think it's this, and then really sort of nailing that down to say, okay, if we say it's revenue, then this is what our priorities could look like. These are the trade-offs that potentially might come, so trying to make sure that we have everything on the table. But we are going with a really big theme and then, if there is some sort of space that we can have like another theme. So I always would prefer to go with like one big thing so we can tell the big story and then say you know, supported by X, because I don't think for the size of companies that sort of, I've been in a leadership position. So this is like scaling companies. You're not yet at that stage where you have like 75 engineering teams. So you have to be very aware that this is the capacity we have. And if we actually want to do something, not just well, but super duper, super well, then we need to have focus. Because if we don't have focus, what ends up happening is that maybe you ask all these engineering teams to build something, but all of the supporting teams are then becoming a bottleneck. So, you know, like marketing, like sales, like business development, because they can only handle a certain amount of things at a certain amount of time, right. So we also have to be very fair and understand that maybe you can deliver this laundry list, but what happens next? Right, are we really going to get the numbers or the outcomes that we expect if we are putting so much pressure on the teams that actually help us get our products out there? So having that discussion about focus is really, really important.

Chiedza Muguti : 25:41
Um, a big lesson that I learned is that once a quarter starts, start planning for the next one because it's an ongoing, it's an iterative thing, just like rip the band-aid off, just start right, kick off, celebrate for a week, breathe, but then say okay, everybody. So you know, like someone laughed and it was january, you know, second week of january I was like so q2 planning? It was, but we just started q1 and I was like I know, but trust me, even when we get to the end of q1 we won't have finished planning q2, even if we start now. But I think it gives everybody an opportunity to kind of get their thoughts on paper and you start having those conversations bit by bit, so that by the time you get to the end of the quarter you're in a really good place, you're aligned, you've had all of your difficult conversations or your arguments, everybody stated their case and then you can all move in the right direction.

Randy Silver: 26:32
I'm curious. This is focused at kind of a macro level. I'm curious about your thoughts about doing it at a micro level as well. Sometimes you have teams with dependencies on other teams and ensuring that there's the right amount of communication and collaboration and some people just say no, we refuse to have any dependencies between teams, you have to own it full stack. Any dependencies between teams. You know you have to own it full stack. So how do you handle this in terms of focus with teams? Do you like collaboration between them? Do you try and break it down into really small things?

Chiedza Muguti : 27:05
Wow, please can you take me to where there are no dependencies? Take me there, take me there. For me, collaboration is key.

Chiedza Muguti : 27:18
I'm such a big advocate for teams working together and understanding what the other team is doing. I don't know if you can be so divorced from what another team is doing to the extent that you just don't collaborate at all. So you know, at least from a product team perspective, we get together and talk about all of the different things that we're doing, so people ask each other questions and then one thing that worked and this is not easy to manage at all, but is having the roadmap in sort of one tool and the dependencies are actually really mapped out really, really well. And then as a team, like every two weeks, we kind of go through that. Because why is that important? Because if something moves by like a week, then you can see the effects that it has on the rest of the plan, so you can see the knock on effect for all the different teams. And really why I want people to do that is so they take really understand, they have to take ownership of, you know, talking to their stakeholders and engaging them to understand, okay, marketing.

Chiedza Muguti : 28:17
This is the situation we are running three weeks behind schedule. What had you planned? Because, for all you know, they've got an external agency that they've got lined up to do something where they've got really rigid payment terms. So if we don't meet a particular date it could be money down the drain.

Chiedza Muguti : 28:33
So having this big sort of visualization of what's going on and I take the point that you know I'm not like at a huge, huge company, so you know I can just talk about the experiences I've had but it really helped a lot to put everything kind of in one place the big sort of big themes, not like every single little ticket no, that would just be hell on earth but at least the big things and really having those dependencies to make it clear. Plus, I think also from a senior leadership perspective, when people can visualize how interconnected the teams are and then we want to talk about hey, we need to split these certain things out. It makes for a much easier story and say, if we try to separate things, things, there will be less of these red lines and spaghetti junction all over the place and the teams will be able to operate a little bit more independently.

Lily Smith: 29:23
I don't know if you can be like totally divorced from each other, but at least to have some level of independence which does take investment and focus and you hinted at this a minute ago um, about kind of looking at quarterly planning how often would you sort of visit your product strategy and and kind of what sort of time frame do you anticipate that to to be relevant for I?

Chiedza Muguti : 29:51
can tell you that, from moving from a corporate to a scaling company, um, I would be like, oh, yeah, before. In a corporate, you're just like, yeah, a couple of times a year where you really sit down to look at it. But in a company that's scaling, in a market that is moving so fast macroeconomic conditions changing all the time I think you have to always, I think, as a product leader, just for yourself, just check in with yourself. I'm not talking about bringing the whole team in, but I think just you know, once a month, just checking in with yourself, what's happening. Do I still feel like we're going in the right direction? Is there something that we need to like change? Are there conversations that I need to start thinking about and planning?

Chiedza Muguti : 30:32
And I think that for a lot of people who I speak to, who are product leaders, a lot of times they're underwater with the real deep details.

Chiedza Muguti : 30:40
But I think that the issue is that, no, but your strength, your power, your value is at this strategic level right where you can already start thinking and anticipating what could come. But if you're super in the weeds, you're not going to be able to breathe, to even think about all of these other conversations that you might need to start planning. So, just for myself, I would be just looking at it, checking it with myself, just at least once a month, asking myself, like you know what's going on. Even, how am I feeling, you know? Am I still, you know, being present and I still being the leader that's giving people the clarity, the empathy, the focus, the trust, or am I actually causing a lack of focus? Am I actually maybe being quite disruptive? So just checking in with myself, so I would say like, yeah, once a month, just check in with myself. Make sure everything is in a scaling company, a month is like a year, everything is in a scaling company, a month is like a year.

Randy Silver: 31:38
This has been fantastic. I think we've got time for just one or two more questions. So, uh, one thing that's come up again and again with people that I've coached and people I've worked with um, when you're the head of product, when you're the cpo, you're doing strategy. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. But when you're product manager, senior product manager, you're doing strategy. There's no ifs, ands or buts about it. But when you're product manager, senior product manager, you're trying to contribute to it, but you may not have done this before. So how do you get your reps in? How do you practice and get good at doing strategy?

Chiedza Muguti : 32:10
Oh, that's a really good question. So when you know I was super lucky because I had a manager who just was so good, he would just throw me in the deep end and just be like, yeah, you know I was super lucky because I had a manager who just was so good, he would just throw me in the deep end and just be like, yeah, so like this is the vision, so like how do you think we should, you know, plan our strategy to contribute to that? And I'd look at him and be like, why are you asking me? Like I have no idea. And then he just started to help me to think about, you know, how do you break all of these things down? How do you start connecting all of the different dots? So he would actually sit with me while he was thinking things through, so I could also learn from him. And also he let me shadow him a lot. So he would take me to some meetings where you know I'd be sitting there thinking, should I be hearing all of this? Like should I actually be here? But it actually helped me to gain a lot of confidence and also really understand how these conversations were happening at that senior leadership level.

Chiedza Muguti : 32:58
So you know, one thing that I do try and do is to at least invite someone from the product team to come to a senior leadership meeting. So if there is something that they want to pitch, that they want to do in the coming quarter, book them a slot during that meeting so they can come and present and talk about it, and then they can also hear the questions firsthand, rather than the questions coming through me. So they kind of get that exposure, get that feedback and then see how they can maybe adapt or change and then how they felt in that meeting. So asking them afterwards, like, how was that for you? How did you find it? You know, were you surprised? I think I had a product manager who came and you know she presented something and then at the end she was like, oh, anyone have any questions? And they were no, no, that was great. And she was like, is that it? I don't know what she was expecting a grilling. But yeah, you know she'd practiced it and we'd practiced it together. So you know, by the time she got there it was like, yeah, it was good. So she really enjoyed that. She shared that with the rest of the team.

Chiedza Muguti : 33:58
So I would definitely try to do that and also, even when I'm trying to think about, ok, how should we plan all of this stuff, I try to involve the team as much as I can.

Chiedza Muguti : 34:07
It's not so easy with hybrid working or with teams that are remote For me this is new for me, so it's not like I've worked in a remote company, so I'm also trying to think of ways we use miro a lot, so trying to also get teams to for us to work together and almost build in public so they can also see, like, okay, this is the vision, this is the strategy and these are the pieces that we're putting together um, and really being highly collaborative. So, you know, trying to be very sort of intentional I keep using that word because you know something that I've really with the situation that we had with all of this remote working you have to almost force the interactions you would be having in person and try and recreate them, which is which is not always easy and it's like another layer of responsibility that you have the layer of responsibility that you have.

Lily Smith: 35:01
Yeah, I love that, the um I that that kind of slightly unnerving feeling of when you've delivered a presentation to your team or the business and everyone seems really engaged but no one's got any questions and you're like, was that just really good and I covered everything, or was that there's people not paying attention?

Chiedza Muguti : 35:16
you know it's hard to tell right when it's when everyone's online, because you know people are probably like on slack.

Lily Smith: 35:22
You know you can see people like this yeah, yeah, this has been so great and um, unfortunately we've run out of time. It's flown by so so quick, but it's been amazing to hear your tips around product strategy and thank you so much for joining us.

Chiedza Muguti : 35:42
Thank you very much for having me. That was good fun. We could have talked forever, but we have to stop.

Lily Smith: 36:01
The Product Experience is the first and the best podcast from Mind the Product. Our hosts are me, Lily Smith.

Randy Silver: 36:10
And me, Randy Silver.

Lily Smith: 36:12
Louron Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Randy Silver: 36:16
Our theme music is from Hamburg-based band PAU. That's P-A-U. Thanks to Arne Kittler, who curates both Product Tank and MTP Engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band, for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via Product Tank Regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.

Lily Smith: 36:37
If there's not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more, go to mindtheproductcom forward slash product tank. The product experience hosts are me, Lily Smith, host by night and chief product officer by day.

Randy Silver: 37:19
And me Randy Silver also host by night, and I spend my days working with product and leadership teams, helping their teams to do amazing work.

Lily Smith: 37:28
Louron Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Randy Silver: 37:32
And our theme music is from product community legend Arne Kittler's band Pow. Thanks to them for letting us use their track.